Is This Credible???

[Warren Kaplan]

At work yesterday a staff member asked me about my sailboat and then asked if I was a licensed captain. I said I wasn't but had been thinking of doing it just for what I could get out of it. Then she related this incredible story to me.

A friend of hers was out boating with some people aboard one day last year. The Coast Guard stopped him and asked if he was a licensed captain. He was not. As one member of the CG was questioning him others were talking to people on board. It was a typical day of boating with food, etc. One friend aboard mentioned that she brought the food which included a couple of sandwiches for the captain. The CG cited the owner of the boat for receiving remuneration while not being a licensed captain!.

In order to be paid for taking passengers on a boat you must be a licensed captain. That I know, in one form or another, is true. The CG maintained that the free sandwiches provided by the people aboard to the captain is a form of payment. And they fined him 450 smackers to back it up!!

I suspect the CG was after this guy for something else and they grabbed him on a technicality because that's all they could make stick. I don't think this staff member is making this up because she is not a boater and would have no knowledge about the in depth rules of being a licensed captain. I think her story is true because you just can't make something like this up!

Whaddaya' all think about this!!!

[yves feder w1ux]

not credible at all Warren. If true, this kind of nitpicking is a total waste of time and if the CG kid was that wet behind the ears to pull a stunt like that, USCG at various levels should be informed. There should be a rule of reason in force, especially considering the important tasks USCG is charged with under homeland security.

Unless, as you say, there was something about this guy they were trying to nail.

Weird. Almost a Soviet-era story.

[Mike]

Warren,

As I understand it the story is credible . Anything a guest brings aboard "in payment" for the trip can be considered renumeration by the CG. If the guest had said nothing about the sandwiches or a least not about making sandwiches especially for the Captain all would have been well.

It's true that the CG could have let it go but maybe they did have a problem with the captain, hard to say. The important lesson, hard as it may be, is that the CG can consider anything given to the captain to be renumeration so conduct yourself accordingly.

Mike

[Carl Thunberg]

I'm guilty as charged. I freely admit that just about every guest I've ever had on board has brought a bottle of wine, a bag of chips, and the ultimate contraband SANDWICHES! If that constitutes payment, go ahead and board me. Oh, and by the way, I know the address of my congressman.

[Steve Laume]

Does this mean I can't request a bottle of wine if someone I don't know that well wants to go sailing? Suggested donation, is how charities often word it. I would think there would be lots of fishboats in big trouble. I always thought it was customary to offer to buy fuel, bait, ice if you were invited fishing. We are pretty low paid "captains" when only a couple of sandwiches change hands for a day on the water. I always feel well paid if I just get to spend time with friends on the boat sandwiches or not, Steve.

[Ed Haley]

I attribute a lot of these stories as post-911 reactions.

I was sailing the north coast of Lake Ontario (in Canada) last summer and had to meet a friend at a yacht club near Toronto. I pulled in to the basin, docked at the visitor's dock and checked in. Then, my friend helped me bring Mokita to an assigned slip. We then went for a cold one in the clubhouse.

After a bit, my friend noticed that there were 2 CG personnel near his boat. He left me at the club and went to his boat to find out why his boat was attracting the attention. His girlfriend and his son were on the boat.

Come to find out that the CG had resurrected a DUI conviction from 1980 (26 years earlier) that he had on his record in the old US of A. They told him that he was "an undesireable person" and he was directed to leave Canada immediately. It was entirely within the discretion of this female CG to merely let him know he had to get cleared with Canada on this matter when he returned to the US. But she asked him to leave. She was very young and might have been a trainee.

We were stunned. They had to get on their Cape Dory and head south out of Canada within the hour.

I spent the night alone with a bad taste in my mouth for Canadian Beer and imagined my friend was even more disillusioned.

[Sea Hunt]

In one of my USPS classes, or US Sailing Classes, I recall being told that asking a prospective guest to bring beer, sandwiches, sodas, etc., is asking for a form of compensation and, regardless of the dollar value, and regardless of the relationship between the owner and guests, means that the boat is a commercial boat for hire and has, in fact, been hired for the value of the food and drink brought aboard. As I understand it, different Coast Guard rules apply, including the need for a licensed captain on board.

If the prospective guest merely brings the beer, sandwiches, sodas, etc., without being asked to do so, then it is not “compensation” and the vessel is not for hire.

It is, of course, very subjective and "intent" is a big factor. In the scenario presented, I assume that either the Coast Guard had a “tadpole” on board (or in command) and wanted to flex some law enforcement muscle, or possibly the boat’s skipper/owner/”captain” became difficult with the Coast Guard and they responded with “crossing ‘t’s and dotting ‘i’s”. It is also possible, as suggested, that the boat’s skipper/owner/”captain” was targeted for whatever reason.

I am used to being out on commercial dive boats where the rules are very different. I recall going sailing with a friend shortly after I got the “sailing bug”. Being the generous person I am I asked what I should bring along for lunch, drinks, etc. He just stared at me, said nothing, and walked away. Another guy standing there explained my error. Now, I don’t ask. I just show up with food, sandwiches, beer, water, etc.

[Carter Brey]

That's strange. Every time I ask anyone to go sailing with me they demand payment from me first. Especially the ones who've been out with me before, including my wife.

Carter

[Steve Laume]

It kind of complicates making plans. I usually tell people they could just bring there own lunch. Inevitably we have way too much food and drink on the boat. I will now consider how I word things when arrangements are made. This really stinks if it is something that can be arbitrarily enforced. Welcome to the land of vanishing freedoms. Carter, I can think of all sorts of responses to your post but I will try to keep my feet out of my mouth for a change, Steve.

[Neil Gordon]

The rules are fairly specific and I remember from the Coast Guard course that *any* consideration could be considered a case of taking passengers for hire without a license. More likely, the rule is to to avoid the "you pay for the gas, a percentage of my marina fee, some wear and tear on the engine, paint my house and do my tax return and I'll take you fishing" scenario. I'm thinking the Coast Guard has better things to do these days.

As an aside, I tried doing a Google search for "Coast Guard sandwiches" and got about 1.1 million hits. I haven't gotten through them yet, but there may be more to this than we thought.

(Don't let the terrorists read this thread. Perhaps the only way the Coasties will get them is if they slip up and bring the so-called captain some sort of snack or beverage.)

[Clay Stalker]

HMMM....I always wondered why everyone who steps on my boats asks for a copy of my insurance and then demands beer in payment for the misery they expect to be put through.....well, Carter, we solved that one!!

[Oswego John]

The story might be technically credible but the premise is incredible.

So all you guys who raft up at sail-ins or have a community pot luck supper w/vino while aboard someone else's craft, you better cover your sixes. Big brother might be watching.

Just to thicken the broth, what do you think might happen if the owner had a Captain's six pack license and there were eight or more people on board while breaking bread?

They might nail you on an overcrowding or other safety issue. Maybe a cracked lens on your tail light. How's the tread on your nonslip deck?

O J

[Lew Gresham]

O J, if you are for hire, and underway making way they can site you, however if the vessel is inspected by the CG for a specific number of passengers that's a different story.
If the Chief Potentate visits a specific station and says guys you need to board some vessels, you can bet they will find something to make the big man happy. Maybe you don't have a placard, or no bell, or a ripped life jacket, or the zipper pull is missing. Even saved expired flares will get you written up. It's always best too show a great deal of respect when boarded, and it's always YES SIR! and NO SIR!.

[bottomscraper]

There have been changes to the law, I think this was true back in the early 80's but was changed. This was covered in one of the sailing magazines several years ago.


SEC. 507. CONSIDERATION.

Section 2101 of title 46, United States Code, is amended by inserting between paragraphs (5) and (6) a new paragraph (5a) to read as follows:

"(5a) 'consideration' means an economic benefit, inducement, right, or profit including pecuniary payment accruing to an individual, person, or entity, but not including a voluntary sharing of the actual expenses of the voyage, by monetary contribution or donation of fuel, food, beverage, or other supplies.". Additionally, employees or business clients that have not contributed for their carriage, and are carried for morale or entertainment purposes is not included as exchange of consideration.

Full text here:

http://www.boatsafe.com/nauticalknowhow/passengers.htm

[Bill Goldsmith]

The "consideration" has to be a "condition of passage" in order to require being licensed. So if the skipper said "don't bother coming if you don't bring me sandwiches," then it is a condition of passage. If the skipper said "Wanna come sailing?" and the guest said "sure, I'll bring some sandwiches." Then they are OK.

As you can imagine there have been quite a few interesting fact patterns that have been tested in court.